I thought it would be interesting to see what the automated appraisal services had to say about the value of the domain king, Rick Schwartz $1,350,000 Million dollar sale of eBet.com
If your a frequent reader of thedomains.com you know I’m not a huge fan of the online appraisal services but pretty surprised when I checked this domain today and found only 2 of 5 gave it a value in the five figures, not great for a 7 figure domain.
I think a fair conclusion would be based on these services Rick did pretty well for himself and that if you selling domain names based off of these services you might be leaving just a little bit of cash on the table.
Here is Estibot valuation of eBet.com
Domain Appraisal – ebet.com
| Domain Details: | ||
| Domain: | ebet.com | |
| SLD: | ebet | |
| Keywords: |
ebet
|
[ change ] |
| Category: | Other — Generic 4-letter | |
| Appraisal Overview: | ||
| EstiBot Value: | $ 12,000 USD | [ currency ] |
| » Help me BUY this domain | ||
| » Help me SELL this domain | ||
.
Before you get on Estibot.com about their appraisal check out the valuation we got from DomainIndex.com:
ebet.com
Domain Apprised $55 USD
06-Nov-1996
17 year(s)
appraisal accuracy 80%
Here is the appraisal from DomainWorth.com
Appraised market value as of 10/10/2013 for ebet.com: $6,809
Market Low:$5,380
Market High:$11,888
Domain Details
Best Split: ebet
Domain Length: 4
Creation Date: 11/6/1996
Traffic Ranking
Alexa Rank: 23,547,973
Visits Potential: 27
Alexa Sites Linking In: 1
Moz Domain Authority: 7
Moz Links: 0
AGDPPP: $43,426
Search Engine Searches
Monthly Searches Exact: 5,400
Monthly Searches Broad: 60,500
CPC Exact: $0.7
CPC Broad: $2.7
Advertiser Competition Exact: 1
Advertiser Competition Broad: 4
Similarity & Popularity
Around COM Domains: 16,871
In Title Web Pages: 138,000
Influential Domains Visits Potential: 0
Estimated Search Results: 1,650,000
Here is the appraisal value by urlappraisal.net
DomainMongrel.com
Free Instant Domain Name Appraisal Service. The Best Online Domain Valuation Tool!
The Domain ebet.com is valued at: $3,849.91
Whenever there is a real big sale, I check Estibot, and invariably the Estibot valuation is for a fraction of the selling price. I think it has been pretty clear for a real long time that for the best domains, Estibot’s valuations are very low. Their valuations seem to be closer to domain sales prices for the lower value domains.
Estibot will later update their data (once it gets listed on DNJournal), and change their valuation, making it *appear* that their algorithm/model is good. But, that’s misleading, because the robustness of the underlying model depends on predicting *out of sample* results (i.e. new and unknown events), rather than interpolating or looking up known transactions.
Yeah, George. That’s why I rush to check Estibot as soon as I hear of a new sale. Because you’re right. Soon after the sale is public knowledge, they’ll update their valuation.
Until these appraisal services start to distinguish pricing for both wholesale and retail then they continue to be less than useful. The only use they sort of have is if they give a domain a big value you can sort of assume the domain has some valuable qualities, but you can’t tell how valuable they really are.
Sure eBet.com was a low 5 figure name in today’s wholesale domainer2domaimer market. Anybody think Rick would have paid even $100k for it if you offered it to him? That would be a huge bet to take (pardon the pun) that someone would come along any time soon and pay 7 figures for it. For low 5 figs or even high 4 it starts to look like a bet worth taking for an investor. Certainly was a great bet for Rick to have taken at $100 (which he did).
If you pay 6 figures for all of your seven figure names you better be a damn good picker.
Other markets with appraisal services distingusih pricing between wholesale and retail (Blue Book with Auto for example).
Until our appraisal services start doing the same then they are all doing us an injustice. Next thing you know a retail buyer comes along and thinks a domain is worth whatever the appraisal service says, leaving us with quitr an uphill battle in negotiations.
I have been saving this for the blog I will finally start one of these days but since that hasn’t happend yet I might as well say it here. All the sales reports (dnsales.com, dnjournal.com, etc…) as much as I think they are great are also doing us an injustice. Each reported sale should say wheter it was an end user or investor buying it (retail or wholesale). It would be nice also if each sale inclided details like if the sale was outbound or inbound. Massive pricing differential between outbound and inbound sales. If you want to try and figure out what you might be able to get for one of your domains this information would be much more helpful.
A better Appraisal would have been:
eBet.com
Wholesale: $10k
Retail: $1M
It may seem strange that there is such a massive value differential between wholesale and retail in domaining but that is just how domaining works.
A domain is worth what someone is willing to pay for it………2 year’s go by and how many more $1m + offers come along?
17 years? How many domainers have come and gone in at time. I’m sure some will say that Ricks pocketbook gave him the edge to wait. Not true of course, You don’t Need to be a millionaire to buy a $100 name and pay renewal for 17 years.
You do however apparently need a good name, plenty of patience, knowledge how to value a domain name, conviction, bravado, and a little luck ;-). Congrats to buyer and seller
The buyers most likely did their homework. They used a broker that knows Schwartz, who is on record on what his domain names means to him. Schwartz is not a very motivated seller.
Many things go into factoring an appraisal, the least of which is not the seller.
In a way, this sale could be considered an outlier. Our appraisal services try to do a decent job, including Estibot.com, but our industry is still nascent, and is undergoing constant changes, and in my opinion, an undermining by some players. It’s gotten to a point where intelligent do mariners such as Borgos is questioning whether valuable premium domains are even worth it anymore.
Schwartz is an enigma. Like him or not, you must admit he lays out cleanly, and practices what he has been preaching. You’ve gotta have balls the size of Gibraltar to counter a million dollar offer from a group that started with $50,000. Yet he did.
More amazing is how long Schwartz has held his names, come hell or high water. He is a believer. He is the essence of remaining. Pure.
The appraisal services will do better when our industry stabilises. Meanwhile, there will always be outliers, on the low side, as well as the high. But, they can not be expected to factor in personalities, and in that regard, Schwartz is a character, nay, king!
Congrats to R.S.
Not sure if the last law passage of online gambling in a couple of states has anything to do with it but it sure pays to be informed.
**********
“Estibot will later update their data ‘
Why?
Who cares afterwards?
.
Each domain should be appraised one at the time, there is no automated appraisal service that is worth it’s salt… and there will never be one…
Each domain is different and unique like a masterpiece or a $5 USD painting from a fleamrket.
Adding the sale to their database if will NOT help their algorithm , none of the factors or elements provide any critical analytical information:
E B E T
4 letters
2 Vowels
2 Consonants
Vowel repeated
Starts with a vowel
Ends in consonant
Starts with an E
vowel consonant vowel consonant
Dot Com
The main element in the domain itself is the word/theme/Industry= Bet, aside that what else can you deduct/conclude?
Let me preface my comment by saying that you should never trust the absolute number of any valuation algorithm. Just as I would never say to trust Zillow.com to price your house, or even a single Realtor to price your house. As George Box said (and I paraphrase): all models are wrong, some are useful.
I think this is a good example of using judgement in conjunction with the automated appraisals.
For example, I ran the Estibot.com appraisal and see the exact same thing you displayed above: $12,000 USD for eBet.com.
However, look at the parsing of the keywords:
It is not parsing the keywords properly, and requires manual user intervention. When you do parse the keywords properly, it goes from $12,000 to $111,000 — about an order of magnitude difference:
And, an educated domain name investor might go as far to say that “ebet.com” is clearly not as good as “bet.com” — but it is brandable. I’m sure Rick would say that. It’s only one character more…and it’s not a strange character or in a strange location. Do you know what bet.com is valued at by Estibot.com?
IF (and that’s a big if) Bet.com is worth what Estibot.com values it at (even at an order of magnitude value), the I think the Estibot.com value for eBet.com might be in order. And I think Rick’s negotiation and patience skills are worth a premium. 🙂
Domain valuations comprise so many data sets, unlike housing & car & even fine art or rare wine valuations. In this case, I’d wager (pun intended) the push towards regulating and legalizing online gaming in the USA played a significant factor in the sale. Rick knows when to hold em and when to cash in the chips. Well played for seller and buyer. Maybe we can throw out the data set of “legislation” if we learn the buyer was from Macau.
Michael, Zillow is actually a very accurate calculator of home values, based on real world parameters and neighborhood sales data – unlike ‘expert’ domain evaluation services that attempt to juggle words intelligently (but ultimately fail.)
From my perspective, ebet is a brand, not an “e+word” 😉 As such, it’s worth the million+ dollar figure they paid for it.
Good point Acro, brand domains are worth more! My company specializes in Brand domain names. Goes with our motto of “Don’t Compete, Conquer” . We don’t sell just domain names. Instead we sell unique Brand Domain names whose uniqueness supports increased value and diminishes competition.
In the end my 3 step sales success system never fails.
Find someone with money (key factor)
Find out what they want (hopefully really bad)
Sell it to them
Getting the opportunity to apply the system involves much belief, patience, and persistence all traits Rick showed in is case.
Bottom line of being able to sell a domain for $1m
If you have $500,000 or $1,000,000 in the bank and own domains, why would you sell a domain for $4,000 ?
Most domainers do not have $500,000 – $1,000,000 in the bank and do sell domains for $4,000.
Easy math, have $1m in the bank, have loads of domains and sit and enjoy the offers.
Ric being one of the first to reg the domains is
Smart play, I was 15 when this happened and was more interested in collecting Garbage Pale Kid Cards, my fault!
When land was up for grabs in the wild west days , do we all appreciate and admire then guys?
Point being is admire the people at the start line, but make sure you get to the finish first!
Estibot can be made to look foolish because the domain market is not efficient. Seller holds a monopoly of sorts and can demand that buyer does much more than just beat the next best bid.
ONLINE APPRAISALS MAY BE INNACURATE… that’s your Headline.
What I really do not like is when Michael Cyger have been advertising Estibot before every interview on Domain Sherpa like it would be a great appraisal tool.
There are many inexperienced people who watch his interviews and trust his words.
The WHOIS has updated for the domain name (use real-time port 43 WHOIS, or NSI’s live WHOIS, given DomainTools caches results once a day).
rueda, rochiel
rochiel.rueda@gmail.com
2702 Pbcom Tower Ayala Ai Cve
Makati, makati 1200
PH
Phone: +639178889111
That person also is the registrant of TheClunyHill.com and CaviarRestauant.com (typo). The WHOIS of the latter leads one to Monaco1.ph, an outsourcing company, which also does SEO.
So, perhaps the WHOIS will change again (they still didn’t update the nameservers)…
Anodder big Cha-Ching for da King !
Party at Ricks place !
Well, DomainIndex.com has a price of $55 for this name!
These valuation, “tools,” are complete JUNK!
Few things tat come to mind:
– Congrats for the sale Rick!
– Everybody knows automated appraisals are unable to estimate the value of brandable names (it’s the case here).
– I continue finding stupid the popular assertion that a domain worth what a buyer is willing to pay for. I just remember: Value Sale price.
– Let’s be honest, most people will have happily sold this name for less than $50K with the conviction they made a super deal.
– It’s true (due to bad domain liquidity) there is a huge difference between the reseller and end-user market, I will say it’s a x10 to x20 factor. To provide more accurate appraisals such tools should be able to distinguish in their calculation if past sales where retailer sales or no (almost impossible).
– I am convinced if you take 100 descriptive domains and have top domainers appraise them, the machine win in time and accuracy.
– Most who critic such automated appraisals, use them and it’s normal. They compute an automatic appraisal to have a valuation idea based on metric and past sales, and after tune it according their own experience, and that’s the way they must be used.
– Sellers will always found (automated or no) appraisals are too low and buyers the inverse.
– Probably more to say but time is money, so back to work!
Probably already been mentioned….but how could an automated appraisal service take into account intangible value? It’s impossible. It’s like trusting a machine to pick a wife or husband – they can check that you both like the same things, have similar interests etc, but they couldn’t say whether the necessary spark is there.
Waste of time.
“eBet” is a brandable, not a generic dictionary keyword. As with all brandables, we know that the there isn’t a market price, but the final price does hugely depend on the combination of buyer/seller.
Have not noted eBet “word mark” or eBet.com Logo in the USPTO tram.
Trademark on ebet USA
Filing Date May 15, 2007
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19990901
Owner (REGISTRANT) eBet Limited COMPANY AUSTRALIA Unit 13, 112-118 Talavera Road North Ryde AUSTRALIA 2113
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4804:gj6e51.2.2
by Paul Green
“What I really do not like is when Michael Cyger have been advertising Estibot before every interview on Domain Sherpa like it would be a great appraisal tool.”
No kidding, you will find very few people that are ‘congruent’ in the domain Industry (between their words and their actions)
same guy that impersonates by using the tag “domain name news” the name of a well know blog/site in an attempt to steal/stir traffic to his wannabe be aggregator… (just look at the recent comments)
and for that we already have Francois (domaining.com) already doing a great job, I became a fan, is there where I find my daily domain news fix… great format great source.
Another top notch appraisal service someone tried to use on me to get a better price on one of my names is http://www.worthofweb.com/website-value/ebet.com $148.
I find this sale hard to believe.
Well that WorthofWeb.com just valued one of my domain names Stuff.com at $2,903 which I paid six figures for in an auction
Estibot has it appraised at $1,000,000
It also valued a random domain i pulled out of the air, Arizona.com at $2,973
I think we can safely disregard this site for valuations
Estibot is rubbish at valuing domains……..I just valued one of my old domains and it came out as $2 , I know It’s not the right value because I sold it this week for $5
Hey Berkens,
Afraid to post my comments? It sounds like it!
Good one Rick.
Forget the appraisal services.
If someone else other than Rick (like maybe 99% of them) owned the domain they would have put their pantyhose on and sold it for $50K or less.
Congrats to Mr. Schwart,he managed to sell a five figure name for 7 figures.@Francois Carrillo->Most constructive feedback in the whole thread.Just because someone has decided to pay you top dollars for one of your names,still that doesn’t make it more valuable.Its market value is what it is(retail or wholesale).So that assertion pointed out by Francois is plain stupid (“a domain is worth what someone is willing to pay for it”).
@Mike
Estibot is not another automated tool, it takes into account many factors and returns a value that for dictionary/geographic domains is generally acceptable. When it comes to brandables, it’s just a matter of personal tastes.
And let us remember – you cannot piss off the right buyer – something Rick always reminds us of – because that statement is THE BIBLE for domain investors.
And the other one I tell folks is – you know the ones who know so much more about domains than my lousy 15 years is ….. “I have never sold a single domain to someone who has other options”
Well 1st of all the post wasn’t just about eEtibot but automated online appraisal systems in general.
If the systems aren’t capable of handling anything other than keyword domains then they should contain a disclaimer to that effect.
Stu
So as to your point yes I understand that most domainers are not in a position to turn down $50K, 100K, $250K, $500K
Understood
I will say however for a guy that does have a “million in the bank” I accept offers and sell domains for $5K, 10K, 25K, 50K and six figures 100K.
Its not just having money (point A) that gets you to turning down six figure offers (Point B)
I agree that having money allows you the opportunity to turn down offers, but unless you have real wealth which only arguably Mr. Schilling has in this space, its hard to turn down $100K, $250K and $500K and $1M
Real hard
So I have to give Mr. Schwartz credit.
A lot of credit.
Being a domain investor is a psychologically hard.
Yes there is no manual labor ,no sweating carrying heavy crap and yes you can sit on the beach as Rick said but there is a burden a different kind of burden, kind of like being a professional stock trader and watching stocks you sold doubling or triple in price from where you sold it or hanging on to shares that are failing knowing you could have sold them and gotten a lot more money for them just days or weeks ago.
I sold a short two word domain under NDA for low six figures but now I see its being advertised in a national TV spot, so could I have gotten more, probably.
How many six figure deals did I accept where the buyer would have went higher?
I will never know how many but there are definitely some
On the other hand I’ve turned down six figure offers on a domain to have never gotten another offer on the domain again.
Has Rick lost six figure sales by turning down offers I’m sure.
So you can talk the talk, but walking away from a six figure payday is hard for even those in the top 1%.
Congrats to Rick, well played
In the end – A successful domain investor is not lucky – he creates his own luck – no different than any other business
“When it comes to brandables, it’s just a matter of personal tastes.”
And that takes a very very distant 2nd or 3rd place behind “how good of a negotiator you are”.
Once you have a hook in their mouth – do not be afraid tug a bit tighter – and then a bit tighter – and then a bit tighter.
Anybody with a decent portfolio or maybe even a handful a decent domains needs to look at this sale as a standard – not an anomaly.
Michael B said
”
I agree that having money allows you the opportunity to turn down offers, but unless you have real wealth which only arguably Mr. Schilling has in this space, its hard to turn down $100K, $250K and $500K and $1M
Real hard
So I have to give Mr. Schwartz credit.
A lot of credit.
”
Michael, Rick posted on his blog it went down like this..
They offered $50,000 initial offer,
Rick countered with 1.8m
They came back with an offer of 1m (THIS MEANS THEY HAVE A LOT OF MONEY AND ARE SERIOUS!)
So Rick knew he had a whale and countered with 1.6m
They countered with 1.1m
Rick countered with 1.35m and a deal was made.
THIS IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STORY TO THE STORY YOU ARE TELLING RE, if they offered 50k, then 250k etc and the credit applied to it. Which b.t.w. they should have done and probably saved themselves hundreds of thousands of dollars! But judging by the first raise from 50k to 1.1m they were probably spending someone elses money.
Brian Wick said
”
In the end – A successful domain investor is not lucky – he creates his own luck – no different than any other business
”
Yes and no.
In the case of Rick Schwartz, it has been “majority luck” mixed in with smarts.
If you would like to argue this, please start by answering the following…
If Rick knew the future value of domain names (like he says he did from the start, something 6 billion other people didn’t know, as he has boasted for years), why didnt he buy hundreds or thousands of domain names? I’m not talking about hand registrations, I’m talking about going around in the 90’s buying up as many domain names as possible off everyone and anyone! And it’s not like he didn’t have the money, because porno.com was an immediate cashcow.
Where as someone like Frank Schilling seems to have created his own luck.
Paula –
The buyer of this domain knew from the beginning who the seller was – and most importantly his reputation as a person and a fair but pointed negotiator – and they knew where the ultimate strike price was going to be.
One other thing Rick Schwartz is not is “majority lucky” – if you watch the news – well you are watching the wrong news channel – sorry 🙂
>>I sold a short two word domain under NDA for low six figures but now I see its being advertised in a national TV spot, so could I have gotten more, probably.
This could be my words except for me it was a 2 letter .com I sold for low low 5 figures.
It’s no fun seeing the billboards either.
>>On the other hand I’ve turned down six figure offers on a domain to have never gotten another offer on the domain again.
This is hard to forget. I have few of these. Rick must have more.
I’ve now determined at the rate I’m selling my names it will take me 5,000 + years to sell all of them so I would have taken $50K for ebet.com.
“If Rick knew the future value of domain names (like he says he did from the start, something 6 billion other people didn’t know, as he has boasted for years), why didnt he buy hundreds or thousands of domain names? I’m not talking about hand registrations, I’m talking about going around in the 90′s buying up as many domain names as possible off everyone and anyone! And it’s not like he didn’t have the money, because porno.com was an immediate cashcow.”
Maybe it’s because he’s not a pig, Paula. Instead, he started a bulletin board where at least one person – and I suspect quite a few – learned a lot about domains and profited greatly thereby.
I used to be angry at him (and John Berryhill) for bruising my ego, and vented it here a few years go, which I regret. I think Howard Neu had it right when he responded that I was missing the forest for the trees. Today I have a lot of respect for both men and visit RicksBlog.com frequently.
Congrats on the sale, R.S.
Brian
”
One other thing Rick Schwartz is not is “majority lucky” – if you watch the news – well you are watching the wrong news channel – sorry 🙂
”
First, my comments are not emotional and if anyone debates a subject emotionally they will elude themselves to the truth.
Second, Ricks whole business has been fueled by porno.com. Yes, he made the decision to buy it for 30 something k. And a week later made the money back simply by putting a text link to an adult affiliate program. It’s one of the luckiest purchases in the history of luck lol.
In regards to the ebet.com deal. The buyer was obviously using someone elses money to raise from 50k to 1.1m on a non generic domain name regardless of who the owner was. And only if you have a golden goose/porno.com can you hold off for the prices Rick demands, because there’s very little motivation to sell unless you make him an offer he cant refuse.
Jon, palease lol
_ Paula –
“well you are watching the wrong news channel – sorry 🙂 ”
– I guess had to repeat it again.
No big deal – best of luck
Michael
No no afraid to publish your comment, just caught in spam since you put a link into the comment
Now to your big news shocking comment:
“”Trademark on ebet USA
Filing Date May 15, 2007
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19990901
Owner (REGISTRANT) eBet Limited COMPANY AUSTRALIA Unit 13, 112-118 Talavera Road North Ryde AUSTRALIA 2113″”
So??
Rick registered this domain name 10 years earlier in the 1990
Do you know anything about trademark law?
Brian
”
“well you are watching the wrong news channel – sorry 🙂 ”
– I guess had to repeat it again.
No big deal – best of luck
”
No (shakes head) – I watch ALL news channels.
For sure you can create your own luck so to speak but lets not deny and give full credit to luck in general.
Its not a bad thing
Call it timing, luck, good fortune, being at the right place at the right time, Karma or whatever there is something out there and its better to have it on your side.
So, if estibot appraises epitome.com at $159,000 and ebet.com at $12,000, does that mean that epitome.com is actually worth $159,000,000? 🙂
Then, again domain mongrel estimates epitome.com at $14,676 compared to eBet.com’s $3,849, so maybe epitome.com is worth $6,000,000! 🙂
Sounds like the only factual statement I can make is: The value can’t be calculated until you have a willing buyer and a willing seller who agree on a price – which essentially means that these domain appraisals are about as useless as a buggy whip in a Ferrari.
Seriously, though, how does one go about establishing a value and finding a buyer?
Online valuation is for giving a idea to the buyer and seller about the potential of a domain. Among all the online valuation sites most trusted are:
1. estibot.com
2. dvaluator.com